so what's in the box?

EC people should have their anniversary sets by now, right? so what's in the tins? salem domain:canberra http://www.geocities.com/salem_christ.geo/vtes.htm (replace "hotmail" with "yahoo" to email)

I know actual moments of time have passed and they havnt posted a full list for us yet... how dare they :) Piers "salem" <salem_ch...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:dv5jq0h4s1queo86l...@4ax.com... [ quoted text not captured ]

"Piers" <Piers-AT-blacklightcafe.co.uk> wrote in message news:<41aaa1d9$0$310$cc9e...@news.dial.pipex.com>... > I know actual moments of time have passed and they havnt posted a full list > for us yet... how dare they :) > > Piers > YES! Have mercy on our souls... SPOIL THE DAMN SETS!!! I beg you... George

"Piers" <Piers-AT-blacklightcafe.co.uk> wrote in message news:<41aaa1d9$0$310$cc9e...@news.dial.pipex.com>... > I know actual moments of time have passed and they havnt posted a full list > for us yet... how dare they :) > > Piers > YES! Have mercy on our souls... SPOIL THE DAMN SETS!!! George

salem <salem_ch...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<dv5jq0h4s1queo86l...@4ax.com>... [ quoted text not captured ] All vampires from Jyhad (with new design). Raven and Camille are now ONE vampire. All vampires group two not reprinted by White Wolf. 43 reprinted cards, including Shadow Step, Vampiric Diesease, Silence of Death, Nephandus, Might of the Cmarailla, Homunculus, Fire Dance, Betrayer, Talaq, Legacy of Powers, Anachronism. Some more i am to lazy to write. 10 new cards (the same 10 in every box.) The best IMO is Powerbase:LA, good for Anarchs, +1 discard, if you discard a anarch card, you can untap one anarch. As an old Jyhad player you really dont need the sets, because you will have all of the vampires. But if you are with game for ten years, you will buy them anyway.

geo...@for.auth.gr (Jyhad_addict) wrote in message news:<c6a50f81.04112...@posting.google.com>... > > 90 previously out of print cards in each set and 10 new anniversary cards :P ...and each with a little "10" on a red foil background as the expansion symbol...

salem <salem_ch...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<dv5jq0h4s1queo86l...@4ax.com>... [ quoted text not captured ] Rastacourere Action 1 pool +1 stealth D Put this card on a titled vampire. The vampire's title is worth 1 less vote during refer., and he or she getzs -1 stealth when attempt. polit. actions. This vampire's cap. is reduced by 1 (not going below 1 blah). A vamp. may have only 1 Rastacourere. Powerbase: Los Angeles Master: unique loc. Tap during your discard phase to gain a discard phase action. If you use that discard phase action to discard a card that requires an anarch or a card that makes a vamp. an anarch you may untap a ready anarch. Any anarch controlled by another Meth. may steal this loc. for his Meth. as a D-action. Polaris Coach Vehicle. Haven. 1 blood During your untap phase, move 1 blood from this vamp. to the PC or burn the PC. While this vamp. is acting, he or she may burn one counter from the PC to get +1 stealth for the current action. During undirected actions and actions that are not directed at this vamp., he or she cannot block or play reaction cards. A minion may have only one haven and only one vehicle. Orc of Ulain Unique equipment The ALLY with this equipment cannot be targeted by D-actions that require aus, chi, dom, pre, ser. Reactions that require any of those disc. cost an add. blood while this ally is acting. Liquidation Master. Do not replace until your next discard phase. Burn seven cards from the top of your library to gain 3 pool. Insurance Scam Master Put this card in play. During your turn, you may tap this card and burn X locations you control to gain X pool. Channel 10 Master: unique location 2 pool Tap to give a minion you control +2 intercept for the current action. Not usable on the first action in a minion phase. Charlton Van Wyk (Hunter) Unique mortal ally with 2 life 0 strength, 0 bleed. 2 pool Carlton can strike for 1R. may dodge as a strike once each combat, +1 intercept when blocking vamp. During your discard phase you may burn Carlton to burn a vamp. who has committed diablerie since your last turn. Caiaphas Smith is known and discussed elsewhere in a thread. Bowl of Convergence Unique equipment. If the bearer is a vampire who has aus, the bearer gets +1 intercept. If the bearer has AUS, he or she can burn 1 blood once during each action to get an add. +1 intercept for the current action. Phew, my fingers are bleeding ;o). Hope that helps. Joscha

salem <salem_ch...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<dv5jq0h4s1queo86l...@4ax.com>... > EC people should have their anniversary sets by now, right? > > so what's in the tins? Contents of the 10th Anniversary Sets ------------------------------------- Set 1 ----- Angel Anvil Appolonius Black Cat Dre, Leader of the Cold Dawn Rake Tura Vaughn Yuri, The Talon Antoinette DuChamp Hasina Kesi Magdelena Schaefer Nik Smudge the Ignored Camille Devereux, The Raven Gitane St. Claire Giuliano Vincenzi Quinton McDonnell Roman Alexander Vliam Andor Wynn Zack North Genevieve Leon Pieter Patrizia Giovanni, Collector of Secrets Aleph Brazil Gilbert Duane Lucian Roland Bishop Roxanne, Rectrix of the 13th Floor Agrippina Chester DuBoisk Ebanezer Roush KoKo Lucretia, Cess Queen Selma the Repugnant Sheldon, Lord of the Clog Tusk, The Talebearer Gillian Krader Lena Rowe Royce Petru Sipos Anson Dieter Kleist Dorian Strack Felicia Mostrom Kallista, Master Sculptor Masika Ramiel DuPre Astrid Thomas Dr. John Casey Ignatius Lazarus Merrill Molitor Roreca Quaid Thomas Thorne Ulugh Beg, The Watcher Ethan Locke Courtland Leighton Democritus Helena Casimir Jazz Wentworth Luccia Paciola Rufina Soledad Timothy Crowley Samson Veiled Sight Vanish from the Mind's Eye Vampiric Disease The Treatment Submachine Gun Sins of the Cauchemar Silence of Death Shadow Step Revocation of Tyre Ravnos Acceptance Nephandus (Mage) Might of the Camarilla Khabar: The Community Incriminating Videotape Homunculus Hellhound Ghoul Escort Fire Dance Curse of Nitocris Consecration Rites Brujah Debate Betrayer Rastacourere Powerbase: Los Angeles Polaris Coach Orb of Ulain Liquidation Insurance Scam Channel 10 Carlton Van Wyk (Hunter) Caiaphas Smith Bowl of Convergence Set 2 ----- Bianca Crusher Don Cruez, The Idealist Hector Sosa Lupo Miranda Sanova Uma Hatch Franciscus Igo the Hungry Julius Navar McClaren Uriah Winter Anastasia Grey Angus the Unruled Badger Basilia Bear Paw Gunther, Beast Lord Ricki Van Demsi Monique Shane Grimald Cristofero Giovanni Rafaele Giovanni Dancin' Dana Dollface Dr. Jest Mariel, Lady Thunder Ozmo Normal Sylvester Simms Zebulon Quira, The Bitch Queen Dimple Duck Grendel, the Worm-Eaten Marty Lechtansi Sammy Sebastian Marley Tiberius, The Scandalmonger Christine Boscacci Jimmy Dunn Rex, The Necronomist Andrei Puxton Tereza Rostas Adrianne Andreas, The Bard of Crete Anneke Colin Flynn Delilah Easton Demetrius Slater Eliott Sinclair, Virtuoso Thespian Tatiana Romanov Cardano Cassandra, Magus Prime Jing Wei Justine, Elder of Dallas Lydia Van Cuelen Sabine Lafitte Sarah Cobbler Richard Tauber, Ayelea's Puppet Emerson Bridges Gideon Fontaine Heather Florent, The Opportunist Melissa Barton Natasha Volfchek Roland Loussarian Sir Walter Nash Violette Prentiss Writ of Acceptance The Signet of King Saul The Peace of Khetamon Talaq, The Immortal Tainted Vitae Spiritual Protector Spiritual Intervention Shepherd's Innocence Sacrifice Ritual Challenge Revelation of the Sire Rapid Thought Legacy of Power Invitation Accepted Giovanni Acceptance Gangrel Justicar Dirty Little Secrets Deal with the Devil Covenant of Blood Business Pressure Blood Bond Anachronism Rastacourere Powerbase: Los Angeles Polaris Coach Orb of Ulain Liquidation Insurance Scam Channel 10 Carlton Van Wyk (Hunter) Caiaphas Smith Bowl of Convergence

Frederick Scott wrote: > I count 10 cards you mentioned. So that sounds like the new > things in one box. Can the rest of the world get a chance to > hear about what's in the other box? Both boxes have the same 10 new cards. mark

"Joscha Duell" <joscha...@gmx.de> wrote in message news:8b87b6c9.0411...@posting.google.com... (some of the cards appearing in the Tenth Anniversary Edition) THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!! I count 10 cards you mentioned. So that sounds like the new things in one box. Can the rest of the world get a chance to hear about what's in the other box? > Caiaphas Smith > is known and discussed elsewhere in a thread. Hmmm. I don't see it being discussed in _this_ small thread, no. Perhaps it was spoiled earlier but I can't find it right off. So that's an eleventh card it would be nice to hear about. Fred

"mark" <mark.s...@no.chello.spam.at> wrote in message news:dqKqd.55107$ha.4...@news.chello.at... [ quoted text not captured ] DOH! You're right, I forgot! It's the other 90 cards (reprints) that differ. Fred

On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 11:52:05 -0700, "Frederick Scott" <dont...@mymail.com> wrote: >I count 10 cards you mentioned. So that sounds like the new >things in one box. Can the rest of the world get a chance to >hear about what's in the other box? > >> Caiaphas Smith >> is known and discussed elsewhere in a thread. > >Hmmm. I don't see it being discussed in _this_ small thread, no. >Perhaps it was spoiled earlier but I can't find it right off. So >that's an eleventh card it would be nice to hear about. He was an ally that most people were split on usefulness for. If he was untapped at the start of your turn, he went to your predator. If he was blocked, the blocking vampire was burnt. The concensus seemed to be you had to play with Remover to have any effect. Morgan Vening

On 29 Nov 2004 11:09:13 -0800, hardy...@gmx.de (Hardy Range) scrawled: >salem <salem_ch...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<dv5jq0h4s1queo86l...@4ax.com>... >> EC people should have their anniversary sets by now, right? >> >> so what's in the tins? > >Contents of the 10th Anniversary Sets >------------------------------------- > >Set 1 >----- >Set 2 >----- hmmm....for what it's worth, i vote Tin #1 as the better tin. thanks all for posting these lists and spoilers... [ quoted text not captured ]

salem wrote: > hmmm....for what it's worth, i vote Tin #1 as the better tin. Set 2: Jimmy Dunn. That is all. Peter D Bakija pd...@lightlink.com http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6 "How does this end?" "In fire." Emperor Turhan and Kosh

"salem" <salem_ch...@hotmail.com> schreef in bericht news:dv5jq0h4s1queo86l...@4ax.com... > EC people should have their anniversary sets by now, right? > > so what's in the tins? > Where these spoiled yet? Ravnos acceptance: If this referendum is succesful, each ravnos may choose to be Camarilla. Put this card into play. Whenever a Ravnos enters play, he or she may choose to be Camarilla. The Ravnos Clan is a Camarilla Clan. identical change for Revocation of tyre, Invitation Accepted and Giovanni Acceptance. Gangrel justicar now explicitly states that you have to choose a ready Camarilla gangrel others?

joscha...@gmx.de (Joscha Duell) wrote in message news:<8b87b6c9.0411...@posting.google.com>... > salem <salem_ch...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<dv5jq0h4s1queo86l...@4ax.com>... > > EC people should have their anniversary sets by now, right? > > really great cards if you ask me. most of them can be easily used in certain decks, well done WW. Can you please tell me if by any chance, Silence of Death and Shadow Step are both in the same set ? if yes, in which ? if yes, i have a feeling that i'll buy like 4 of that. When are we going to have a complete spoiler, i am interested because i am in this game for 2 years and though i have accomplished to gather a lot of cards including a lot of type 1 vamps, i'd like to know exactly what is contained so i can decide how many of each set i am going to buy. I believe that the sets will be available for purchase at different quantities, meaning that i will be able to place an order for e.g. 3 set1 and 5 set2, right ? George

"Jeroen Rombouts" <jeroen....@NOSPAMpandora.be> a écrit dans le message de news:s1Mqd.4822$2i6.3...@phobos.telenet-ops.be... > > "salem" <salem_ch...@hotmail.com> schreef in bericht > news:dv5jq0h4s1queo86l...@4ax.com... > > EC people should have their anniversary sets by now, right? > > > > so what's in the tins? > > > Where these spoiled yet? > > Ravnos acceptance: > If this referendum is succesful, each ravnos may choose to be Camarilla. Put > this card into play. Whenever a Ravnos enters play, he or she may choose to > be Camarilla. The Ravnos Clan is a Camarilla Clan. > > identical change for Revocation of tyre, Invitation Accepted and Giovanni > Acceptance. CLASSY =D any change on legacy of power, though ? ;)

On 29 Nov 2004 11:09:13 -0800, hardy...@gmx.de (Hardy Range) wrote: >salem <salem_ch...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<dv5jq0h4s1queo86l...@4ax.com>... >> EC people should have their anniversary sets by now, right? >> so what's in the tins? I hope White Wolf printed these at about 5 Set 1 to 1 Set 2. I don't see anything to prompt purchase of more than 1 copy of set 2 in its listing (excepting Spiritual Intervention for Giovanni, but that has never been a $20 card). I would certainly be tempted to buy 4-5 copies of Set 1 if playing Assamites and thinking that I needed Silence of Death, or if playing Lasombra and wanting Shadow Step, or playing Tremere Antitribu and wanting Nephandus. Might perhaps have been distributed better if the printing plan above wasn't the case. Carpe noctem. Lasombra http://www.TheLasombra.com/cardlists.htm [ quoted text not captured ]

The Lasombra wrote: > On 29 Nov 2004 11:09:13 -0800, hardy...@gmx.de (Hardy Range) wrote: > >>salem <salem_ch...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<dv5jq0h4s1queo86l...@4ax.com>... >> >>>EC people should have their anniversary sets by now, right? >>>so what's in the tins? > > > I hope White Wolf printed these at about 5 Set 1 to 1 Set 2. > > I don't see anything to prompt purchase of more than 1 copy of set 2 > in its listing (excepting Spiritual Intervention for Giovanni, but > that has never been a $20 card). I was going to point out all the cool vampires on Set 2, but then I noticed Set 1 also got quite a few good ones too. Still, Jimmy Dunn is sure to sell a few boxes... Sacrifice used to be pretty hot before PTO got reprinted... ...and you get Deal With The Devil too!!! ;) Flux

"The Lasombra" <TheLa...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:dvfnq0p4utaf5kn9i...@4ax.com... > I hope White Wolf printed these at about 5 Set 1 to 1 Set 2. > > I don't see anything to prompt purchase of more than 1 copy of set 2 > in its listing (excepting Spiritual Intervention for Giovanni, but > that has never been a $20 card). > > I would certainly be tempted to buy 4-5 copies of Set 1 if playing > Assamites and thinking that I needed Silence of Death, or if playing > Lasombra and wanting Shadow Step, or playing Tremere Antitribu and > wanting Nephandus. Has anyone checked for card reprint changes? Had there been anything signficant, it may be that set 2 gains something by comparison to set 1. (Or not. I mean, gee, after the upgrade to Camille Devereux, the underwear mod...I mean, "The Raven", who knows?) Fred

>Camille Devereux, The Raven So...does this vampire replace both the old Camille Devereux and The Raven, meaning that many old Gangrel decks are illegal? Or does she count as a whole new vampire? Or does she count as one of the two (most likely Camille), but the other (Raven) is still different? Given the way the rules are written, it seems like the second option is probably correct, since the names are different. However, this seems greatly agains the spirit of what the contesting rules are meant to accomplish (not that using Raven and Camille together was Kosher to begin with). So, if my guess is correct, how many of you out there will be bring G1/2 FOR PRO to the next tourney? Cthulukitty

> I hope White Wolf printed these at about 5 Set 1 to 1 Set 2. > After playing CCGs with Precon Decks since 1997, I cannot stress enough the utility of being able to edit said ratio on the fly. I hope WW will be able to implement such changes in future expansions. Suppose there is a huge demand for City Gangrel Starters next fall. Why, you could print up a huge pile of City Gangrel Starters! Still, it was nice reading that they implemented the "Acceptance" cards the way I thought best. :) The Power Cards for Set 2 seem to be slim in number: > >Jimmy Dunn > >Andrei Puxton > >Anneke > >Spiritual Intervention

The Lasombra wrote: > I don't see anything to prompt purchase of more than 1 copy of set 2 > in its listing (excepting Spiritual Intervention for Giovanni, but > that has never been a $20 card). Jimmy Dunn. You always want at least 2 of him... [ quoted text not captured ]

CthuluKitty wrote: > So...does this vampire replace both the old Camille Devereux and The > Raven, meaning that many old Gangrel decks are illegal? Or does she > count as a whole new vampire? Or does she count as one of the two > (most likely Camille), but the other (Raven) is still different? I'm guessing that they are all now the same vampire. I.e. you can have one of, in play, at any given time Camille *or* Raven *or* Camille, The Raven. Granted, it seems like there needs to be errata or clarification to make this the case, but whatever. [ quoted text not captured ]

CthuluKitty wrote: > So...does this vampire replace both the old Camille > Devereux and The Raven, meaning that many old > Gangrel decks are illegal? It doesn't make them illegal, it's perfectly fine to have duplicates in a crypt. * lehrbuch

Peter D Bakija <pd...@lightlink.com> wrote: > The Lasombra wrote: >> I don't see anything to prompt purchase of more than 1 copy >> of set 2 in its listing (excepting Spiritual Intervention for Giovanni, >> but that has never been a $20 card). > > Jimmy Dunn. You always want at least 2 of him... Look at the cards in Tin2. Now look at the cards in Tin1. Under what conditions would you buy Tin2s, just to get Jimmy Dunn and a bunch of other garbage cards, when you can get Jimmy Dunn off eBay or from trades with your friends for MUCH cheaper than the cost of Tin2? I suppose newer players won't make this distinction, but that is a completely invalid reason for not making Tin2's cards equally desirable to Tin1's. And YES, sports fans, "equally desirable" is an *obviously* measurable figure. Now, when the CE starters came out, players said that the Malk and Nos decks were worth less than the other starters -- which is obviously true when comparing the Malk and Nos rares with the other CE starter rares -- but the CE starters were made to be *played*, and in being played, the Malk and Nos decks are *extremely* good. In a CE starter battle, I have never seen the Nos starter get less than 2VPs! This cannot be said of the TAS decks; they are made to be *collected* -- whether for the tins or the cards, or whatever -- and the issue seems to be that Tin1s will outsell Tin2s maybe 4-1, and why did WW decide that this was acceptable? I'm interested in hearing from LSJ or whomever just why they decided to make the tins so OBVIOUSLY, PAINFULLY disproportionately collectible, but since I won't get a straight answer, and it won't make any difference anyway, why bother? :P I agree in principle with Lasombra, and I'll be ordering probably 8-10 Tin1s and *maybe* 1-2 Tin2s. Grumbling aside, the *idea* of creating these VTES deck-sized tins, while inserting the remaining reprints along with several new cards, was and is an AWESOME product concept! Thank you! :) > Peter D Bakija Kevin M., Prince of Henderson, NV (USA) "Know your enemy, and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment... Complacency... Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier

Peter D Bakija wrote: > I.e. you can have one of, in play, at any given time Camille *or* Raven *or* > Camille, The Raven. > > Granted, it seems like there needs to be errata or clarification to make > this the case, but whatever. I asked LSJ this question at the EC, and he said once the anniversary sets are legal for tourney play (30 days) then the three vampires will all contest one another. This seems fair, as Camille and The Raven should have really contested from the start. I wonder why WotC didn't just leave the name the same and change the art when V:TES was printed... Makes sense to me that they all contest. It is, however, a little late in the day to have Camille and Raven contesting, imo. It weakens group 1 Gangrel decks. Mark

salem <salem_ch...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<241nq0pqi41onbqad...@4ax.com>... > On 29 Nov 2004 11:09:13 -0800, hardy...@gmx.de (Hardy Range) > scrawled: > > >salem <salem_ch...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<dv5jq0h4s1queo86l...@4ax.com>... > >> EC people should have their anniversary sets by now, right? > >> > >> so what's in the tins? > > > >Contents of the 10th Anniversary Sets > >------------------------------------- > > > >Set 1 > >----- > > >Set 2 > >----- > > hmmm....for what it's worth, i vote Tin #1 as the better tin. > > thanks all for posting these lists and spoilers... > Shame on you... you are conducting a poll!!! :P i vote set1: Shadow Step!!!! George

The Lasombra <TheLa...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<dvfnq0p4utaf5kn9i...@4ax.com>... > On 29 Nov 2004 11:09:13 -0800, hardy...@gmx.de (Hardy Range) wrote: > > >salem <salem_ch...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<dv5jq0h4s1queo86l...@4ax.com>... > >> EC people should have their anniversary sets by now, right? > >> so what's in the tins? > > I hope White Wolf printed these at about 5 Set 1 to 1 Set 2. > > I don't see anything to prompt purchase of more than 1 copy of set 2 > in its listing (excepting Spiritual Intervention for Giovanni, but > that has never been a $20 card). > > I would certainly be tempted to buy 4-5 copies of Set 1 if playing > Assamites and thinking that I needed Silence of Death, or if playing > Lasombra and wanting Shadow Step, or playing Tremere Antitribu and > wanting Nephandus. > exactly, you are so true... George

Gregory Stuart Pettigrew <ethe...@sidehack.sat.gweep.net> wrote in message news:<2004112920...@sidehack.sat.gweep.net>... > > The Power Cards for Set 2 seem to be slim in number: > > > >Jimmy Dunn > > >Andrei Puxton > > >Anneke > > >Spiritual Intervention for example, i only need Jimmy Dunn from these and not so badly, 'cause i already have 2 Dunns and i am sure i will find some more by trading. On the other Hand, i only have 2 Shadow Steps, no Nephandus, no Silence of Death... If you also consider that i have spent about $40 on ebay to buy the 2 Steps, you can easily understand why i (one of many) love SET 1. George

"Kevin M." <you...@imaspammer.org> wrote in message news:<jLRqd.184540$hj.67045@fed1read07>... > I'm interested in hearing from LSJ or whomever just why they decided to > make the tins so OBVIOUSLY, PAINFULLY disproportionately collectible, but > since I won't get a straight answer, and it won't make any difference > anyway, why bother? :P > > I agree in principle with Lasombra, and I'll be ordering probably 8-10 > Tin1s and *maybe* 1-2 Tin2s. > Kevin M., Prince of Henderson, NV (USA) > "Know your enemy, and know yourself; in one-thousand battles > you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* > "Contentment... Complacency... Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Hey guys, I know that you have access to the world market of cards and you're probably in the game for several years, but we in Minsk aren't. I'm going to order 2 Tin1s and 2 Tin2s to get the cards I need for play, not for their retail value. And I need these cards from Tin2: Bianca - should accompany my Miller Delmardigan Crusher - the same case... maybe Basilia - always wanted to make a deck with her Ozmo - is needed for my Malk 1-2 groups deck with Arika Normal - good company for Dimple in Obf-weenie deck Zebulon - would be great in the mentioned Malk deck Quira - my first deck was !Malks, and she is very good Dimple - see Normal above Marty Lechtansi - I'm sure to find players to use her DOM in Nosferatu deck Jimmy Dunn - very, very cool. Anneke - she was my primary reason to order the tins, as it's practically impossible to get Anson and Anneke here. Delilah Easton - good for PRE-weenie deck Tatiana Romanov - good Prince for any 1-2 Toreador deck ! all Group1 Tremeres are needed to my friend Emerson Bridges - good Ventrue prince... hard to find them in the newest groups Gideon Fountaine - No.1 PRE-weenie-bleeder Sir Walter Nash - BEST Ventrue Prince for all times Violette Prentiss - very good in PRE-weenie deck The Signet of King Saul - very good, and is going to be even better Ritual Challenge - quite good, no? Legacy of Power - should be good for intercept deck Covenant of Blood - should allow Miller to rush everybody Thus, I don't think that the selling ratio would be 4:1 or 5:1. Almost every person that wants to play, not to trade, would order both tins. And the traders should consider that the value of "precious" cards will inevitably drop down. Ector

In message <d6c82c73.04113...@posting.google.com>, Ector <Ec...@mail.ru> writes: >Thus, I don't think that the selling ratio would be 4:1 or 5:1. Almost >every person that wants to play, not to trade, would order both tins. >And the traders should consider that the value of "precious" cards >will inevitably drop down. Very probably, but the good library cards you mention are less likely to be needed in great numbers. >The Signet of King Saul - very good, and is going to be even better >Ritual Challenge - quite good, no? >Legacy of Power - should be good for intercept deck >Covenant of Blood - should allow Miller to rush everybody I think some of these are good - Gangrel Justicar too - but they're not hugely staple cards in the sense of wanting 8 of them in a deck. Whereas Shadow Step, say... I'd step over my own mother to get. *sound of muffled voices from underfoot* *fades to black* -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D Who's ever heard of that, though! EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 Designing a deck that just calls votes. 13D7E668C3695D623D5D That's crazy talk, there.

On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 15:40:54 -0500, Peter D Bakija <pd...@lightlink.com> scrawled: >salem wrote: > >> hmmm....for what it's worth, i vote Tin #1 as the better tin. > >Set 2: Jimmy Dunn. > >That is all. i already have 3 from The Sabbat. and i just don't play that many flavours of weenie pot. :) [ quoted text not captured ]

On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 01:05:04 +0000, Flux <fl...@netc.pt> scrawled: [ quoted text not captured ] it'd better have a new nudie picture, like gird minions got, to make it worth it. :D [ quoted text not captured ]

On 30 Nov 2004 01:09:53 -0800, Ector <Ec...@mail.ru> wrote: > Thus, I don't think that the selling ratio would be 4:1 or 5:1. Locally, where you play, maybe. I'm sure retailers will either only sell them in pairs, or introduce a price gap between them to offset the difference in demand. We're talkin about SHADOW STEP which is a free replacable MANEUVER card from OBT. With stuff like Ahriman's Demesne you'll need those badly. > Almost every person that wants to play, not to trade, would order both > tins. True. Maybe order both sets twice. And then order Set#1 a coupla' more times for the Shadow Steps. > And the traders should consider that the value of "precious" cards > will inevitably drop down. Yes, like the way you can now get cheap Succubi or Ians. Never. When you need to buy a complete set of cards to get a single Shadow Step (of which you can well need 8-10 copies for certain decks) all you'll end up getting is a slight reduction in the price of the ultra-rare Shadow Step and a huge drop in the price of all other cards included in Set#1. -- Bye, Daneel

For those players who have been playing since before WW took over, maybe they aren't that greatm but for the newer players who came in with or after Sabbat War, these tins are the perfect way to get the older cards that they might not be able to get. The tins are cheaper than buying them all on EBay I'm sure. -- Colin "Eryx" Goodman Cambridge UK http://www.geocities.com/eryx_uk/Cambridge_by_night.html

On 29 Nov 2004 02:34:05 -0800, Decebalus <x5m...@gmx.de> wrote: > All vampires from Jyhad (with new design). Raven and Camille are now > ONE vampire. This is both lame and cheap. I'm still somewhat disappointed, even though I never played Camille and Raven together for lack of necessity. The rewording of the acceptance cards is excellent though. -- Bye, Daneel

> conditions would you buy Tin2s, just to get Jimmy Dunn and a bunch of > other garbage cards, when you can get Jimmy Dunn off eBay or from trades > with your friends for MUCH cheaper than the cost of Tin2? And to add to the rest, the art of Tin 1 is much better !! -- Orpheus --------------- Wer'e no longer the knights who say "ni". We are now the Knights Who Say 'Ecky- ecky- ecky- ecky- pikang- zoop- boing- goodem- zoo- owli- zhiv'

Jeroen Rombouts <jeroen....@nospampandora.be> wrote: > "salem" <salem_ch...@hotmail.com> schreef in bericht > news:dv5jq0h4s1queo86l...@4ax.com... >> EC people should have their anniversary sets by now, right? >> >> so what's in the tins? >> > Where these spoiled yet? > Ravnos acceptance: > If this referendum is succesful, each ravnos may choose to be Camarilla. Put > this card into play. Whenever a Ravnos enters play, he or she may choose to > be Camarilla. The Ravnos Clan is a Camarilla Clan. Not bad.. If this is the exact text, then does "enters play" include from contestation and from other weird effects? Or does the text say "from the uncontrolled region"? Does it affect [Ravnos] currently in play as well? That last sentence affects Al-Ashrad's ability. Cool.

On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 11:48:34 GMT, Colin Goodman <colin.g...@ntlworld.com> wrote: > For those players who have been playing since before WW took over, maybe > they aren't that greatm but for the newer players who came in with or > after > Sabbat War, these tins are the perfect way to get the older cards that > they > might not be able to get. The tins are cheaper than buying them all on > EBay > I'm sure. I'm glad you have an opinion, even though I'm not sure exactly what you replied to... ;) Where I play you can get the majority of G1 vampires for about the equivalent of 20 Euro cents apiece. Sometimes even less. That makes the tins wanted primarily for the Step and Dunn by the noobies, and the Step (almost) alone by vets. -- Bye, Daneel

"Daneel" <dan...@eposta.hu> wrote in message news:opsh922p...@news.chello.hu... > On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 11:48:34 GMT, Colin Goodman > <colin.g...@ntlworld.com> wrote: > I'm glad you have an opinion, even though I'm not sure exactly what > you replied to... ;) Oops... thats what you get for posting half way though dinner. Heh. My post was in response to some folks being of the opinion that Tin #2 isn't as good as Tin #1. Which leads me back to the opinion that its good for new comers to the game. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 13:07:40 GMT, "Colin Goodman" <colin.g...@ntlworld.com> wrote: >My post was in response to some folks being of the opinion that Tin #2 isn't >as good as Tin #1. Which leads me back to the opinion that its good for new >comers to the game. Math. There are multiple cards in Tin 1 that sell for more than $10 regularly on eBay. Therefore, it is better for players to buy Tin 1 than it is to wait for cards to go up for sale on eBay. This aids White Wolf and the retail sales channel. There are no cards in Tin 2 that can match that. Jyhad and V:TES set vampires have never been uncommon, so they will not draw the purchase of more than 1-2 complete sets per player. If White Wolf would like to really move this product, it must include items that will trigger the purchase of the tins aside from the vampires. With Tin 1, they have very effectively done so. Per http://www.vtesinla.org/db_prices.asp, the following cards from Tin 1 make additional purchases from White Wolf an obvious one. Shadow Step Avg price = 16.06 Silence of Death most recent sales 15.77 and 13.08 Nephandus (Mage) avg price = 18.25 ~$40 worth of cards, plus all 10 of the new cards for a full retail price of 19.99 / $15 from Potomac Distribution / $14 from All Star Trading Cards. I never said that no one would buy Tin 2, only that Tin 1 is vastly superior in its ability to get people to buy them. Carpe noctem. Lasombra http://www.TheLasombra.com

Jozxyqk wrote: >>Ravnos acceptance: >>If this referendum is succesful, each ravnos may choose to be Camarilla. Put >>this card into play. Whenever a Ravnos enters play, he or she may choose to >>be Camarilla. The Ravnos Clan is a Camarilla Clan. > > Not bad.. > If this is the exact text, then does "enters play" include from contestation and > from other weird effects? Or does the text say "from the uncontrolled region"? Yes. The text quoted is correct. > Does it affect [Ravnos] currently in play as well? See first sentence. Note also that if it is in play, any vampire that changes clan to Ravnos or a Ravnos that "enters play" without a sect designator (The Embrace, for example) is Camarilla - there is no way to choose to override the default and be Independent. If it leaves play (the controlled is ousted, for example), the default sect is Independent again, but the sects of the in-play Ravnos are not affected -- any that had been made Camarilla remain so, including Embraces, etc. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

"mark" <mark.s...@no.chello.spam.at> wrote in message news:qXUqd.55324$ha.3...@news.chello.at... > Makes sense to me that they all contest. It is, however, a little late in the day to have Camille and Raven contesting, imo. It > weakens group 1 Gangrel decks. It does weaken some group 1-2 Gangrel decks, that's an indisputable fact. The opinion part of the issue is whether that's good or bad. Was it too easy to build decks with both Camille and Raven or was the duplication appropriate? The difference probably isn't going to be enough to massively affect anyone's ability to build Gangrel decks so it doesn't really get me all riled up for that reason, I suppose. It does kind of annoy me in that I'd arranged my collection around being able to use them both. Too late in the day, as you say. It does have a good side in that no one who's started collecting recently has to worry about how to get hold of a Camille in order to be on par with players who've been around a long time. (Nor playing a Jyhad-backed card in order to play both Camille and Raven.) Considering that such things as promo-only cards exist, this isn't exactly an overwhelming benefit, either. Fred

On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 13:45:24 GMT, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > Note also that if it is in play, any vampire that changes clan to Ravnos > or > a Ravnos that "enters play" without a sect designator (The Embrace, for > example) is Camarilla - there is no way to choose to override the default > and be Independent. If Francois Villon Clan Impersonates Ravnos while this card is in play, he is automatically a Camarilla Ravnos (as you said). If Arika Banishes the Ravnos Villon, who is then moved back into the controlled region, will he be able to choose his sect as he is entering play? The card says "may choose to be Camarilla", hinting at that he or she may also choose "not to be" Camarilla. Can he? -- Bye, Daneel

James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message news:<jTJbqNI0...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk>... > ...but the good library cards you mention are less likely to > be needed in great numbers. > Whereas Shadow Step, say... I'd step over my own mother to get. > > *sound of muffled voices from underfoot* > > *fades to black* Not a kind joke, truly. I'm going to play Lasombra myself, and I appreciate Shadow Steps, but I wouldn't play 10 Shadow Steps even if I had them. Shadow Step is precious only with Ahriman's Demesne - if you value maneuvers so high, play IR Goggles :) I really think that the card is overhyped. Black Metamorphosis is far more powerful, but it WAS easier to find it. Now things are completely changed. Almost every player will have his Shadow Step, but how many players would play it? Thus, finding your 5-6 copies would be relatively easy. Ector

The Lasombra <TheLa...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<dvfnq0p4utaf5kn9i...@4ax.com>... > I don't see anything to prompt purchase of more than 1 copy of set 2 > in its listing (excepting Spiritual Intervention for Giovanni, but > that has never been a $20 card). > > I would certainly be tempted to buy 4-5 copies of Set 1 if playing > Assamites and thinking that I needed Silence of Death, or if playing > Lasombra and wanting Shadow Step, or playing Tremere Antitribu and > wanting Nephandus. > exactly, so naturaly comes my following question: WHY ????? when a common vtes player with a decent experience and knowledge on the cards playability and the needs of the jyhad community would advise WW (imo) to put in one set Shadow Step + Nephandus + Spiritual Intervention and in the other Silence of Death + Jimmy Dunn + Signet of King Saul in order to make more money. Personally, i am glad that things turned out this way, as i mostly need Shadow Step and Silence of Seath. Thus i'll propably buy 1x set2 and 4x set 1. George

Daneel <dan...@eposta.hu> wrote in message news:<opsh90ma...@news.chello.hu>... > On 30 Nov 2004 01:09:53 -0800, Ector <Ec...@mail.ru> wrote: > > > Thus, I don't think that the selling ratio would be 4:1 or 5:1. > > Locally, where you play, maybe. I'm sure retailers will either > only sell them in pairs, or introduce a price gap between them > to offset the difference in demand. We're talkin about SHADOW > STEP which is a free replacable MANEUVER card from OBT. With > stuff like Ahriman's Demesne you'll need those badly. Hey, does everybody want to play Ahriman's Demesne or even Lasombra? And even if you want, how many Shadow Steps and Demesne's will you use? I'm pretty sure that Shadow Step will be widely available soon for an average price, like the all good rares from starter decks. And this card isn't as crucial as Disarm or Tier of Souls. Expect it to be sold between $3 and $5, so you'll be able to get your 10 Shadow Steps :) > > Almost every person that wants to play, not to trade, would order both > > tins. > > True. Maybe order both sets twice. And then order Set#1 a coupla' > more times for the Shadow Steps. I'd better trade the Shadow Steps off the other players. Once more: not all players want to play it! > > And the traders should consider that the value of "precious" cards > > will inevitably drop down. > > Yes, like the way you can now get cheap Succubi or Ians. Never. > When you need to buy a complete set of cards to get a single Shadow > Step (of which you can well need 8-10 copies for certain decks) all > you'll end up getting is a slight reduction in the price of the > ultra-rare Shadow Step and a huge drop in the price of all other > cards included in Set#1. Well, my first motivation to get the tins was the tins themselves :) Then, I want Shadow Steps, but not so badly to pay 17 euro for it. And, of course, I want these wonderful Group 1 vampires. While all our players would like to get the beautiful tins for their decks, and most players want the vampires, I'm the ONLY player hunting for Shadow Steps. And you can expect a LOT of people buying the tins just for the vampires and for the tins, and these people would be HAPPY to return at least part of their money by selling their Shadow Step to you :) Ector

"Jyhad_addict" <geo...@for.auth.gr> wrote in message news:c6a50f81.04113...@posting.google.com... > The Lasombra <TheLa...@hotmail.com> wrote in message > news:<dvfnq0p4utaf5kn9i...@4ax.com>... >> I don't see anything to prompt purchase of more than 1 copy of set 2 >> in its listing (excepting Spiritual Intervention for Giovanni, but >> that has never been a $20 card). >> >> I would certainly be tempted to buy 4-5 copies of Set 1 if playing >> Assamites and thinking that I needed Silence of Death, or if playing >> Lasombra and wanting Shadow Step, or playing Tremere Antitribu and >> wanting Nephandus. >> > > exactly, so naturaly comes my following question: > > WHY ????? Well, the answer is pretty clear: no one at White Wolf bothered to think about this issue when they split the cards up. I mean, there's no point in castigating WW continually over what amounts to a single mistake. I think the issue is just getting White Wolf to think about things like this, particularly when reprinting cards. Like Camarilla Edition, where the starter decks included a Ventrue deck with several highly sought-after reprints vs. a Nosferatu deck which really contained little more than highly-specialized, low-demand reprints (if I recall correctly, without bothering to go look it up). It's one of those things where I suppose WW feels challenged enough just to get the artwork, the layout, the cardtext, and all the other things arranged to make these reprints come off without a hitch without worrying about doing a secondary market study to figure out how to divide them. None the less, I think someone there is going to have to start putting some brain cycles into considering this issue at times. Otherwise, problems crop up in that players want only part of a production cycle and don't want the other part so some things can't be obtained while other product sits around unsold. > Thus i'll propably buy 1x set2 and 4x set 1. Assuming you can even get any set 1 when you go to but it. Fred

On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 07:45:35 -0700, Frederick Scott <nos...@no.spam.dot.com> wrote: >> WHY ????? > > Well, the answer is pretty clear: no one at White Wolf bothered to > think about this issue when they split the cards up. Okay, IANAWWE but there is no evidence supporting this. They might've thought things over and decided to distribute the cards in this fashion based on their perception of what a card is worth in terms of usefulness. I've heared people complain about Shadow Step and Jimmy Dunn most and they are in different sets. For all I know they could've just listed the cards according to usefullness and then include every odd in Set#1 and every even in Set#2. Problem is, the only thing that can be worse than an ultra-rare permanent is an ultra-rare transient. -- Bye, Daneel

"Daneel" <dan...@eposta.hu> wrote in message news:opsh9900...@news.chello.hu... > On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 07:45:35 -0700, Frederick Scott <nos...@no.spam.dot.com> wrote: > >>> WHY ????? >> >> Well, the answer is pretty clear: no one at White Wolf bothered to >> think about this issue when they split the cards up. > > Okay, IANAWWE but there is no evidence supporting this. They might've > thought things over and decided to distribute the cards in this > fashion based on their perception of what a card is worth in terms of > usefulness. I've heared people complain about Shadow Step and Jimmy > Dunn most and they are in different sets. For all I know they > could've just listed the cards according to usefullness and then > include every odd in Set#1 and every even in Set#2. Well, considering the results, that seems to be extremely unlikely to me. Do _you_ hear anyone defending this split as being even vaguely fair in terms of usefulness?!? I sure don't! At least, if you believe they did think about this issue, then please suggest where they might have made their mistake. In any event, my point was to suggest people not go on endless haranging when the whole problem can be reduced to a single oversight (however egregious the oversight was). The point should be to fix whatever problem caused it so that it doesn't continue to happen. Fred, who frankly didn't expect anyone to dispute this point

"Daneel" <dan...@eposta.hu> wrote in message news:opsh9900...@news.chello.hu... > On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 07:45:35 -0700, Frederick Scott > <nos...@no.spam.dot.com> wrote: > >>> WHY ????? >> >> Well, the answer is pretty clear: no one at White Wolf bothered to >> think about this issue when they split the cards up. > > Okay, IANAWWE but there is no evidence supporting this. They might've > thought things over and decided to distribute the cards in this > fashion based on their perception of what a card is worth in terms of > usefulness. I've heared people complain about Shadow Step and Jimmy > Dunn most and they are in different sets. For all I know they > could've just listed the cards according to usefullness and then > include every odd in Set#1 and every even in Set#2. > Yeah. And then there'd be people on Usenet whining about how they're "fleecing the customer" by diluting the wanted reprints across the two sets, 'forcing' the customer into buying both, and landing them with an excess of 'useless' extra cards. The logical conclusion? Some people whine, regardless of what you do as a company. As for reprintability, these two sets seem logically reprintable as seperate items, what with each having 100 cards (the exact size of a VTES uncut sheet, IIRC). WW should be able to adjust inventories on a later reprint, if they choose to do so. I think someone at WW _did_ think about it (Fred), and deliberately made access to the most wanted reprints (as characterized by obscene Ebay costs) cheaper by putting most of them into one set. As a fixed set release, if they can get one reprintable unit to sell vastly more than another, then it actually helps WW from a standpoint of sales margin. A higher volume reprint of a single sheet is _much_ less expensive than reprinting two different sheets (with two different setups of the press). Press setup for a printing run is a pretty high portion of total print cost (Anam! Where are you when I need you?). Once the press is going, the more you can print, the lower the per-sheet print cost, as the setup cost is 'amortized' across more product. Regards, DaveZ Atom Weaver

"David Zopf" <david...@snet.net> wrote in message news:4X0rd.34904$Qv5....@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com... > I think someone at WW _did_ think about it (Fred), and deliberately made > access to the most wanted reprints (as characterized by obscene Ebay > costs) cheaper by putting most of them into one set. As a fixed set > release, if they can get one reprintable unit to sell vastly more than > another, then it actually helps WW from a standpoint of sales margin. > A higher volume reprint of a single sheet is _much_ less expensive than > reprinting two different sheets (with two different setups of the press). Well, that seems unlikely to me if for no other reason than there's never been any evidence that White Wolf ever bothered to think about this before. Also, if choosing a reasonably-sized print run of collectible cards was black magic before, just imagine trying to figure out what the correct ratio of Set 1 to Set 2 would be if one is expecting more demand for the former than the latter. Is The Lasombra right? Or is the ration higher (10 to 1)? Lower (2 to 1 or 1 1/2 to 1)? Who could imagine they'd know? But it's a credible theory for the moment. We'll see what happens when the demand for Set 1 starts rolling in and place like Potomac have to meet it. I bet we'll see "Sold Out" flashed on the 'Set 1' order box LONG before 'Set 2'. Just me, I guess. Fred

Jay Kristoff's "can I wear that jacket too" deck that included multiple copies of Gangrel Justicar would disagree.

IANLSJ but What happens when a default sabbat ravnos comes into play?. They too get the "choose to be camerilla" option (thus infiltrating the camerilla ranks!!! BWAHAHAHA!) but when they don't choose, then the defaulted sabbat ravnos DOES NOT BECOME ravnos. Hence they'll stay whatever they are. In this case, Sabbat. In your case, Daneel, they stay Camerilla (he can choose to be camerilla, and if he does he'll become camerilla. If he doesn't choose, he'll be whatever his defauly is, which in this case, is still camerilla).

"Frederick Scott" <nos...@no.spam.dot.com> wrote in message news:Ws1rd.79696$EZ.43583@okepread07... > "David Zopf" <david...@snet.net> wrote in message > news:4X0rd.34904$Qv5....@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com... >> I think someone at WW _did_ think about it (Fred), and deliberately made >> access to the most wanted reprints (as characterized by obscene Ebay >> costs) cheaper by putting most of them into one set. As a fixed set >> release, if they can get one reprintable unit to sell vastly more than >> another, then it actually helps WW from a standpoint of sales margin. >> A higher volume reprint of a single sheet is _much_ less expensive than >> reprinting two different sheets (with two different setups of the press). > > Well, that seems unlikely to me if for no other reason than there's never > been any evidence that White Wolf ever bothered to think about this > before. I disagree. I think they put a significant amount of thought into reprinting. There are factors that go into that decision which aren't perceptible to the average player, though. Most have to do with the supply chain (printer --> WW --> distributor -->retailer) moreso than the end consumer. > Also, if choosing a reasonably-sized print run of collectible > cards was black magic before, just imagine trying to figure out what > the correct ratio of Set 1 to Set 2 would be if one is expecting more > demand for the former than the latter. Is The Lasombra right? Or is > the ration higher (10 to 1)? Lower (2 to 1 or 1 1/2 to 1)? Who could > imagine they'd know? > Probably true, but they've set themselves up so that they don't need to know the exact ratio, so long as they get reasonably close (close enough to fill every VTESsers stocking with one of each set :-). If demand goes waay up for set 1, they can reprint it to accomodate demand (just not in time for Christmas). The bigger concern is potentially overprinting set 2, which might take longer for distributors and retailers to move (cf. !Ventrue starters). I think it was Jyhad that taught a certain CCG publisher that underprinting (and then later re-printing) is a much less grevious business error than overprinting is. Can you blame them for being overly cautious not to _ever_ piss off the supply chain with overstock again, even if they inherited that displaced bad rep from WotC? > But it's a credible theory for the moment. Hey, thanks! :-) > We'll see what happens > when the demand for Set 1 starts rolling in and place like Potomac > have to meet it. I bet we'll see "Sold Out" flashed on the 'Set 1' > order box LONG before 'Set 2'. Just me, I guess. > DaveZ Atom Weaver

On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 08:32:46 -0700, Frederick Scott <nos...@no.spam.dot.com> wrote: > Well, considering the results, that seems to be extremely unlikely > to me. Do _you_ hear anyone defending this split as being even > vaguely fair in terms of usefulness?!? I sure don't! Neither do I. Please convince me though that the demand for each card exactly matches its usefulness. > At least, if you believe they did think about this issue, then please > suggest where they might have made their mistake. Maybe they didn't make a mistake. Maybe they made the mistake of not surveying demand and judging the cards upon their technical usefulness. I mean, Signet of King Saul may be more useful than Shadow Step, but you need fewer of the one than the other in the average deck that uses one of them. They might've ignored the demand issue, they might've misjudged it or they might have judged it correctly and deliberately chose to do otherwise. We have no evidence of either... > In any event, my point was to suggest people not go on endless haranging > when the whole problem can be reduced to a single oversight (however > egregious the oversight was). The point should be to fix whatever > problem caused it so that it doesn't continue to happen. > > Fred, who frankly didn't expect anyone to dispute this point I never debated that Set#1 is more useful than Set#2. I just have no evidence supporting that the distribution is a result of an oversight on WW's part, when it might've been a mistake or a deliberate action. -- Bye, Daneel

"Daneel" <dan...@eposta.hu> wrote in message news:opsiaghb...@news.chello.hu... > On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 08:32:46 -0700, Frederick Scott > <nos...@no.spam.dot.com> wrote: >> At least, if you believe they did think about this issue, then please >> suggest where they might have made their mistake. > > Maybe they didn't make a mistake. Maybe they made the mistake of not > surveying demand and judging the cards upon their technical usefulness. > I mean, Signet of King Saul may be more useful than Shadow Step, but > you need fewer of the one than the other in the average deck that uses > one of them. In other words, Shadow Step is more useful than Signet of King Saul. All right, I thank I understand more or less what you're saying but the lesson from _that_ is that the definition of "useful" you're invoke is itself not useful. At least, not for these purposes! If the issue is, "How much demand for this set is such and such a card going to create?" - so the two can be balanced** - then you need to take into account how many of a given card people will use, not just how much of a splash does that card make in a game. To NOT do so, would be the mistake. And if so, that is the mistake they should fix. (** - or 'imbalanced' to order, if David Zopf is to be believed.) > I never debated that Set#1 is more useful than Set#2. I just have no > evidence supporting that the distribution is a result of an oversight > on WW's part, when it might've been a mistake or a deliberate action. A deliberate action doesn't make sense to me (again, David's theory that they printed more of Set 1 not withstanding). A mistake and an oversight are the same thing. Fred

In message <1101833444....@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, Screaming Vermillian <vermil...@yahoo.com> writes: (It's helpful to quote what you're following up, so that we know what's being disagreed with.) >Jay Kristoff's "can I wear that jacket too" deck that included multiple >copies of Gangrel Justicar would disagree. Sure, there are trick decks for nearly everything. But few people play each individual trick deck. So, of course, some people will buy lots of decks/pre-cons/boosters etc. that will help them play their trick deck. But that's small potatoes compared to the people not playing it and buying other stuff. -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D Who's ever heard of that, though! EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 Designing a deck that just calls votes. 13D7E668C3695D623D5D That's crazy talk, there.

In message <d6c82c73.04113...@posting.google.com>, Ector <Ec...@mail.ru> writes: >James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message news:<jTJbqNI0xDrBFw >z...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk>... >> Whereas Shadow Step, say... I'd step over my own mother to get. >> >> *sound of muffled voices from underfoot* >> >> *fades to black* >Not a kind joke, truly. You think I jest? Relatives are but nothing next to the Jyhad. >I'm going to play Lasombra myself, and I appreciate Shadow Steps, but >I wouldn't play 10 Shadow Steps even if I had them. Shadow Step is >precious only with Ahriman's Demesne - if you value maneuvers so high, >play IR Goggles :) The standard problem with IR Goggles features here. Don't get me wrong, I like both IR Goggles and Jackie Therman but they're heavily weighed against by the resource cost - an action. (If there was a "Concealed Weapon" for generic equipment...) Random wanderings: One of the things that seem to be quite popular (and certainly very good when played well) are multi-rush decks. I've seen both Fatima and Tariq do nasty things to a table in recent times, and I remember a (very old) Wynn deck having similar fun. People having a few maneuvers and a gun (a popular setup, in my experience) means that IR Goggles is crap. You need two maneuvers. Now, of course, in the instance that you don't find that, you're fine - though the 'wasted' action may or may not be something you care about. With Shadow Step, when you find you don't have those sorts of decks to fight against, you're fine. Play it at inferior, done. When you do, play it at superior and make sure you take the bastard down with you. Or IG. Which you can't do at long range. Hence the Set Range potential being possibly hugely useful when deployed well. There's also the fact that in-clan disciplines in general work well for weenie-fying decks. obt/pot weenifies reasonably well - and you get some fringe benefits of bounce from dom on your ancillary vampires. (The idea of an obt/pot rush deck, along the lines of the age-old obf/pot decks from years ago, has appealed for some time on a purely "Cool" level.) And I have a fondness for Potence rush decks. I find them fun to play, if, uh, somewhat hard. A particular favourite of mine from some years back (it was discussed a little on rgt-cj at the time) was a European princes deck that had a handful of Third Traditions in it to speed things along a bit. So anyway, I like the flexibility of a free, transient maneuver and the whoop-ass of Set Range when you really, really need it. >I really think that the card is overhyped. Black >Metamorphosis is far more powerful, Oh, I think BM is a great card. It's a zero-stealth action, though, which adds more to your problems. Do you want to add stealth (Obt/Elysian Fields) to your deck? I think the two complement each other rather well, myself. Why additional strike if you're at long range? And staying at close is a pain if you can only do the one strike. Of course, the other possibilities of, say, a Lasombra gun deck using it to set range when all else fails are possible. I just like the flexibility a lot. [ quoted text not captured ]

Well, I guess my Cam Vitae Slaves just went up in value [shrug] I was under the impression these would be reprinted. Guess not.

Kevin M. wrote: > Look at the cards in Tin2. Now look at the cards in Tin1. Under what > conditions would you buy Tin2s, just to get Jimmy Dunn and a bunch of > other garbage cards, when you can get Jimmy Dunn off eBay or from trades > with your friends for MUCH cheaper than the cost of Tin2? I dunno--looking at the two sets, in both you get the 10 new cards (a wash) and, what, about 70 reprint vampires (also pretty much a wash, but for my money, set 2 has relatively harder to get vampires in it with Jimmy Dunn and Christine Boscacci, the newly useful in a Black Hand deck Quira the Bitch Queen, and Aneke who people seem to like), but atill mostly a wash. So there are ~20 extra cards to quibble over. The standouts in set 1 are: -Silence of Death (not really that good of a card, but apparently folks seem to like it so it sells) -Shadow Step (a very good card) -Nephandus (popular) -Betrayer (the key to a partiucularly silly, if semi effective, deck type) And then a bunch of other random stuff. The standouts in set 2 are: -Talaq (reasonably good ally) -Spiritual Intervention (people want a lot, but not *that* hard to get as singles) -Rapid Thought (This one is pretty good and kinda hard to get) -Anachronism (the newly useful total hoser for "Huge Vampire Freaky Assault Rifle" decks--I'm considering main decking one in my Rush deck for the next big tournament...) I mean, yeah, ok, when you look at the cards that sell for bucks on e-bay, Set 1 has Shadow Step, Silence of Death, and Nephandus where Set 2 has, uhhh, Jimmy Dunn? But really, are *that* many more set 1's going to sell over set 2? I'll likely buy one of each, 'cause I'm like that. People who got in after Jyhad was over will buy 1 of each to get all the vampires. People who really want some duplicates might buy more of one than the other, given their want, but do ya *really* think that Set 1 has those three expensive cards is going to make *that* much difference? Peter D Bakija pd...@lightlink.com http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6 "How does this end?" "In fire." Emperor Turhan and Kosh

> Malk and Nos decks are *extremely* good. In a CE starter battle, I have > never seen the Nos starter get less than 2VPs! First - I have to disagree with this. Sure, the Malk starter is good - it is a s&b deck in a enviroment with only a few Blood dolls and few bounce cards. But the Nos deck really sucks. At least that is what I have seen of it. > I'm interested in hearing from LSJ or whomever just why they decided to > make the tins so OBVIOUSLY, PAINFULLY disproportionately collectible, but > since I won't get a straight answer, and it won't make any difference > anyway, why bother? :P Correct. (To use a expression used by a famous thinker on this thread.) (If I were WW, I悲 but Shadow step together with crap in one tin and all the other OoP goodies in the other tin.) Anyway, the errata on Acceptence-cards was great. IMHO.

"Frederick Scott" <nos...@no.spam.dot.com> wrote in message news:<9x2rd.79880$EZ.23592@okepread07>... > > > I never debated that Set#1 is more useful than Set#2. I just have no > > evidence supporting that the distribution is a result of an oversight > > on WW's part, when it might've been a mistake or a deliberate action. > > A deliberate action doesn't make sense to me (again, David's theory > that they printed more of Set 1 not withstanding). A mistake and an > oversight are the same thing. > Thank god they are giving set1 at the 10th Anni contest. I sure hope i see my name in the 3 last winners... George

The Lasombra <TheLa...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<chsoq0tmncm10ju22...@4ax.com>... [ quoted text not captured ] exactly and whoever has a different opinion is welcome to send me any number of set1 and i'll send him the same number of set2. George

Ec...@mail.ru (Ector) wrote in message news:<d6c82c73.04113...@posting.google.com>... > James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message news:<jTJbqNI0...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk>... > > I'm going to play Lasombra myself, and I appreciate Shadow Steps, but > I wouldn't play 10 Shadow Steps even if I had them. Shadow Step is > precious only with Ahriman's Demesne - if you value maneuvers so high, > play IR Goggles :) I really think that the card is overhyped. Black > Metamorphosis is far more powerful, but it WAS easier to find it. Now > things are completely changed. Almost every player will have his > Shadow Step, but how many players would play it? Thus, finding your > 5-6 copies would be relatively easy. > Your thoughts are way too simple... Don't you dare to compare IR Goggles with Shadow Step again, it is blasphemy... I don't agree that the only help Shadow Step is going to give is to Ahriman;s Demense, what about TB + SD + Entombment or Signpost or Black Metamorphosis + Magnums... e.t.c. You don't have to think all the possible combos... you just have to realize that you get a card that sets the range for a 2 blood cost! The only effect that can beat Cailean's special (if you are the acting minion) and i mean really beat it, as other effects like high ground + flight just set the range to long, not whatever range you like. George

Jyhad_addict wrote: > exactly and whoever has a different opinion is welcome to send me any > number of set1 and i'll send him the same number of set2. Yeah, see, really, the only card in set 1 that is really worth getting lots of is Shadow Step (how many Nephandusai do you really need, and Silence of Death is, like, not that good). And yeah, well, while I would like to own 8 Shadow Steps, I'm not going to spend $160.00 buy 8 anniversary sets to get them. Consequently, how many set 1's do I need? I mean, yeah, ok, I suppose someone is going to buy a lot of set 1 to get all the Shadow Steps in the world. I suspect that in the long run, people who are like that are going to buy one of each set, and some extra Set 1's are going to sell to people with more money than sense. [ quoted text not captured ]

Jyhad_addict wrote: > I don't agree that the only help Shadow Step is going to give is to > Ahriman;s Demense, what about TB + SD + Entombment or Signpost or > Black Metamorphosis + Magnums... e.t.c. Shadow Step is a really good card. But really, who is going to buy 8 copies of Anniversary Set 1 to get enough to make a deck out of? Really? [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <BDD275B4.1B38D%pd...@lightlink.com>, Peter D Bakija <pd...@lightlink.com> mumbled something about: >Jyhad_addict wrote: > >> I don't agree that the only help Shadow Step is going to give is to >> Ahriman;s Demense, what about TB + SD + Entombment or Signpost or >> Black Metamorphosis + Magnums... e.t.c. > >Shadow Step is a really good card. But really, who is going to buy 8 copies >of Anniversary Set 1 to get enough to make a deck out of? Really? Would you have, say, bought 8 Lasombra starter decks if it had included Shadow Step? I know people who would have. The card is incredibly good; it's a free maneuver at inferior, and it's set-range at superior. And many people here also underestimate its power as defense; include eight Shadow Steps and six Shadow Bodies, and that Theo Bell IG deck can just sit on its thumbs while you end combat at range once per turn. Even without a Shadow Body in hand, the 2 blood you spend to set range to long will be more than worth it... since Theo would be sending you to torpor empty if you didn't. Gotta do the math up. 2 blood in an emergency > empty torporized vamp. -- Derek a host is a host from coast to coast and no one will talk to a host that's close unless the host that isn't close is busy, hung, or dead

Derek Ray wrote: > Would you have, say, bought 8 Lasombra starter decks if it had included > Shadow Step? I know people who would have. Yeah, maybe. > > The card is incredibly good; it's a free maneuver at inferior, and it's > set-range at superior. Oh--don't get me wrong here--I think the card is fantastic. As I said earlier, if I could magically end up with 8 of them, I'd be psyched. But I think at a certain point, that you have to spend $20.00 to get 1 of them (barring swapping with a pal who really wants, say, extra Nephanduses) becomes disincentive enough to buying a lot of them. I mean, yeah, ok, there are at least a few really, shall we say, determined enough folks who *will* buy up 8 of Set 1, but I think those folks are pretty few and far between, and buying, say, 2 of Set 1 and having 2 Shadow Step, really, isn't that much better than having none. So I suspect that most folks aren't going to rush out a sweep up multiples of Set 1 just to stock up on Shadow Steps. I mean, yeah, I certainly could be wrong, but it seems unlikely. Like, there just isn't enough good stuff in that box, Nephandus, Shadow Step, and Silence of Death be damned, to justify buying that many of them so you can get the requisite 8 or so Shadow Steps you need to build a deck out of--especially as when enough folks realize that they have exactly 1 Shadow Step, which isn't really doing them any good, they'll be easy to get on e-bay for not that much money. But then, I could be wrong, as I am often amazed by weirdness. [ quoted text not captured ]

James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message news:<ydd$p8Nk8M...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk>... > >I'm going to play Lasombra myself, and I appreciate Shadow Steps, but > >I wouldn't play 10 Shadow Steps even if I had them. Shadow Step is > >precious only with Ahriman's Demesne - if you value maneuvers so high, > >play IR Goggles :) > > The standard problem with IR Goggles features here. > > Don't get me wrong, I like both IR Goggles and Jackie Therman but > they're heavily weighed against by the resource cost - an action. (If > there was a "Concealed Weapon" for generic equipment...) Shadow Step is obviously better, though the Goggles have their advantages - maneuvers are random, permanent equipment isn't. I just want to say that spending a card for a free maneuver is good, but it is really crucial when you MUST choose the needed distance. Lasombra can play superior Shadow Step, Thrown Sewer Lid, press, another Shadow Step, Ahriman's Demesne. It's cool, but it would cost 4 blood, and it's easily parried by S:CE, damage prevention or even Dodge. If you don't want to waste an action on Goggles, try Concealed Weapon + Deer Rifle. Two maneuvers will allow you to set combat range almost always, and you can get additional strike from Black Metamorphosis, which also provides free press each combat! I'm going to play it myself if I manage to find enough BM. In general, cards that ONLY set combat range aren't going to be especially popular in combat decks. Flash provides both maneuver and press, but it's outclassed by Pursuit that provides additional strike. Apportation provides maneuver or press to continue. Swallowed by the Night provides maneuver or stealth. Shadow Step is going to be played en masse ONLY in "long-range-only-strike" decks. > People having a few maneuvers and a gun (a popular setup, in my > experience) means that IR Goggles is crap. You need two maneuvers. > Now, of course, in the instance that you don't find that, you're fine - > though the 'wasted' action may or may not be something you care about. > With Shadow Step, when you find you don't have those sorts of decks to > fight against, you're fine. Play it at inferior, done. When you do, > play it at superior and make sure you take the bastard down with you. > Or IG. Which you can't do at long range. Hence the Set Range potential > being possibly hugely useful when deployed well. Shadow Step is really good in Lasombra IG deck against guns. But having 10 Shadow Steps in your deck would hurt you against another IG deck or any close-range deck (Protean, Vicissitude etc.) Nobody wants to maneuver, and you have useless cards in your hand... A LOT OF THEM! I guess you can maneuver to long range just to cycle the card :) > There's also the fact that in-clan disciplines in general work well for > weenie-fying decks. obt/pot weenifies reasonably well - and you get > some fringe benefits of bounce from dom on your ancillary vampires. > (The idea of an obt/pot rush deck, along the lines of the age-old > obf/pot decks from years ago, has appealed for some time on a purely > "Cool" level.) I'd prefer cel/pot weenies, if I really wanted weenie Rush deck. Jimmy Dunn is a monster, Celerity-based combat cards are much better (Pursuit, Blur, Sideslip, Psyche!), and Flurry of Action is invaluable. Unfortunately, the youngest vampire with superior Obtenebration have capacity of six, thus Shadow Step would serve only as a maneuver in obt/pot weenie decks. > >I really think that the card is overhyped. Black > >Metamorphosis is far more powerful, > > Oh, I think BM is a great card. It's a zero-stealth action, though, > which adds more to your problems. Do you want to add stealth > (Obt/Elysian Fields) to your deck? > > I think the two complement each other rather well, myself. Why > additional strike if you're at long range? And staying at close is a > pain if you can only do the one strike. Surely, I'm going to add some stealth, as I'm not a big fan of "combat-only" decks. And if I want to bleed, I need stealth anyway. Shadow Play and Blanket of Night are quite good. Elysian Fields MUST be in every Lasombra deck, even in the mentioned weenie-rush. Do you want opponent's vampires to block your rushes? :) By the way, Bum's Rush will provide the precious maneuver if your prey fails to block it, so stealth is really essential. Talley and Ambrosius can even play Nose of the Hound! My point about BM: if you have additional strike, you can use strikes with inbuilt maneuvers as your first strike. Play Thrown Gate with maneuver to short range, then play your Undead Strength. Or just set the range with Deer Rifle and make use of the second strike. It's surely worse than playing superior Shadow Step and throw two Lids, of course :) But I don't think that the difference should really justify purchasing a tin for $15 or more just to get Shadow Step. Personally I just plan to pack 3-4 Shadow Steps with 1-2 Ahriman's Demesnes as "fear cards". Ector

The Lasombra <TheLa...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<chsoq0tmncm10ju22...@4ax.com>... > Jyhad and V:TES set vampires have never been uncommon, so they will > not draw the purchase of more than 1-2 complete sets per player. If > White Wolf would like to really move this product, it must include > items that will trigger the purchase of the tins aside from the > vampires. > > With Tin 1, they have very effectively done so. > > Per http://www.vtesinla.org/db_prices.asp, the following cards from > Tin 1 make additional purchases from White Wolf an obvious one. > > Shadow Step Avg price = 16.06 > Silence of Death most recent sales 15.77 and 13.08 > Nephandus (Mage) avg price = 18.25 > > ~$40 worth of cards, plus all 10 of the new cards for a full retail > price of 19.99 / $15 from Potomac Distribution / $14 from All Star > Trading Cards. > > I never said that no one would buy Tin 2, only that Tin 1 is vastly > superior in its ability to get people to buy them. Surely, Tin1 is better, though the prices you mention are going to fall. These prices were on ultra-rare collectible cards, and these cards aren't so rare now. In fact, they aren't "collector cards" anymore. How many of these cards are really needed to PLAY? Do you expect Nephandus decks or Assamites with Silence of Death? Only Shadow Step is really needed in large quantities, as the Lasombra is a powerful clan, and it really lacks good maneuvers. I'm sure that somebody will buy 10 Tin1s to get 10 Shadow Steps, but such people are rare. A lot of people will buy both tins just to get the tins. BTW, Signet of King Saul is going to be much stronger now, with the dreaded Bowl of Convergence in play... Let's get Tin2 for the Signet! Ector

geo...@for.auth.gr (Jyhad_addict) wrote in message news:<c6a50f81.04113...@posting.google.com>... > Your thoughts are way too simple... Don't you dare to compare IR > Goggles with Shadow Step again, it is blasphemy... OK, so I'm infernal :) Just a couple days ago won the local Infernal Plague tournament. > I don't agree that the only help Shadow Step is going to give is to > Ahriman;s Demense, what about TB + SD + Entombment or Signpost or > Black Metamorphosis + Magnums... e.t.c. Entombment is DEFENSIVE card, and it's usually played with Arms of the Abyss. If you try to use it offensively, how can you beat S:CE? Black Metamorphosis + Magnums? You have maneuver from Magnum, so you'll need 5-6 Shadow Steps max. > You don't have to think all the possible combos... you just have to > realize that you get a card that sets the range for a 2 blood cost! Wow! Cool! Super! Rulezz! Two blood isn't nothing (for the same cost you can play Thoughts Betrayed), and your benefit from it must be high enough to compensate the cost. Ahriman's Demesne seems the only card that can justify setting range for 2 blood. > The only effect that can beat Cailean's special (if you are the > acting minion) and i mean really beat it, as other effects like high > ground + flight just set the range to long, not whatever range you > like. > > George Looks like you encounter Cailean way too often :) I don't think that he is so popular to make a special deck against him. Ector

"Daneel" <dan...@eposta.hu> wrote in message news:opsh9653...@news.chello.hu... > On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 13:45:24 GMT, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > > > Note also that if it is in play, any vampire that changes clan to Ravnos > > or > > a Ravnos that "enters play" without a sect designator (The Embrace, for > > example) is Camarilla - there is no way to choose to override the default > > and be Independent. > > If Francois Villon Clan Impersonates Ravnos while this card is in play, > he is automatically a Camarilla Ravnos (as you said). If Arika Banishes > the Ravnos Villon, who is then moved back into the controlled region, > will he be able to choose his sect as he is entering play? The card > says "may choose to be Camarilla", hinting at that he or she may also > choose "not to be" Camarilla. Can he? See above quote for answer. The Ravnos Villon can choose to be Camarilla or can take his default of Camarilla. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. V:TES homepage: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/ Though effective, appear to be ineffective -- Sun Tzu

"Screaming Vermillian" <vermil...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:1101834211.5...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com... [ quoted text not captured ] s/camerilla/camarilla/g but otherwise Correct. :-) [ quoted text not captured ]

LSJ wrote: > Note also that if it is in play, any vampire that changes clan to Ravnos or > a Ravnos that "enters play" without a sect designator (The Embrace, for > example) is Camarilla - there is no way to choose to override the default > and be Independent. an elegant solution to a tricky problem! well done!

Peter D Bakija <pd...@lightlink.com> wrote in message news:<BDD29237.1B3A1%pd...@lightlink.com>... > Derek Ray wrote: > > > Oh--don't get me wrong here--I think the card is fantastic. As I said > earlier, if I could magically end up with 8 of them, I'd be psyched. But I > think at a certain point, that you have to spend $20.00 to get 1 of them > (barring swapping with a pal who really wants, say, extra Nephanduses) > becomes disincentive enough to buying a lot of them. I mean, yeah, ok, there > are at least a few really, shall we say, determined enough folks who *will* > buy up 8 of Set 1, but I think those folks are pretty few and far between, > and buying, say, 2 of Set 1 and having 2 Shadow Step, really, isn't that > much better than having none. So I suspect that most folks aren't going to > rush out a sweep up multiples of Set 1 just to stock up on Shadow Steps. I > mean, yeah, I certainly could be wrong, but it seems unlikely. > > Like, there just isn't enough good stuff in that box, Nephandus, Shadow > Step, and Silence of Death be damned, to justify buying that many of them so > you can get the requisite 8 or so Shadow Steps you need to build a deck out > of--especially as when enough folks realize that they have exactly 1 Shadow > Step, which isn't really doing them any good, they'll be easy to get on > e-bay for not that much money. > > But then, I could be wrong, as I am often amazed by weirdness. > Your comments are not far from reality, but do not describe exactly what is going to happen. imo, a frenzy for set1 will occur... Think this... i have managed to obtain 2 Shadow Steps, by bying them from ebay: $25 for the 1st and $16 for the 2nd. What do you think will keep me from buying 6 set1 boxes, only the lack of money maybe... i'll surely buy a total of 5x set1 + 1x set2, maybe more if i manage to obtain more spare money to buy cards... Tomorrow i am going to place an order for 2 CE boxes that are going to cost me $151, an order for singles that is going to cost me $70 and a pre-order for set1&set2 that is going to cost me $48 (buying from Europe with s&h fees included). By making these buys, my collection will reach about 13.000 cards and the most important thing is that there are lots of quality rares in it. As my first priority is to manage to obtain enough of the good rares/uncommons to be able to build any type of deck that can be built (within reasonable limits, e.g. i believe my 10 mind rape are enough and don't care to try and make them 16). So, i and many other people have the following philosophy: "when i realize that buying more of X starter deck or more boxes of X set will not benefit me greatly, as i am only looking for a few specific cards of these sets/starters, then i am turning to buying singles from stores or ebay. Now, when i realize that spending money in 10th anni set1 will benefit me more than spending money on buying singles, then i will do so and i will buy many of it" Finaly, i don't intend to advertise my collection, but only to reach my final conclusion. There are a lot of guys like me, who have nice collections that include enough Golcondas, Mind Rapes, Warghouls but few Shadow Step, Silence of Death, e.t.c. (i own 2 SStep, 0 SoD). So, do you think that i will think twice before i place an order for 4 more set1, after some days pass and i gather some money ? By spending a total of about &110 (i am calculating this cost based on me living in Greece, thus including the proper s&h fees + increased price due to buying from Europe) i will end up having 5x set1 and 1x set2. If i manage to "save" more money for cards, then i'll buy more set1 boxes. Thus 6x every new card, 5x Shadow Step + my current 2 = 7, e.t.c. If you only think that i only need a few cards multiple times from set1 and thus i am forced to buy 5x set1 just to get these cards, you may reach the conclusion that it is not beneficial to do such a thing. But if you think this thouroughly, i am sure that you'll come around to understand that by spending these $110 (less for a guy that lives in USA and can buy 5x set1 + 1x set2 for only 6x14= $84 from All Star Trading) on 10th anni sets, i am getting the best cards this amount of money can buy me at this particular time. I am not the only one who thinks this way, i am sure. By spending $110 on ebay buys, i can get 5 Warghouls and maybe i'll have to spend some more money. By spending $110 on 10th anni sets, i get 6 steel boxes with nice Appolonius artwork :P + 6x each new card, + 5x all set1 cards + 1x set2 cards. Definetely the best suited buy my money can make at this time... George

Ec...@mail.ru (Ector) wrote in message news:<d6c82c73.04120...@posting.google.com>... > > > > George > Looks like you encounter Cailean way too often :) I don't think that > he is so popular to make a special deck against him. > Usualy, i am not having a lot of trouble with Cailean as i often burn him with a PTO. I was just trying to explain that Shadow Step is a great card, one that really helps OBT based combat. Additionaly, don't forget that Kiasyd also have OBT and they also have access to Darkling Trickery, another nice card (a rare one though). Anyway... i just wanted to note that Shadow Step is really strong. George

On Wed, 1 Dec 2004 08:01:24 -0500, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: >> If Francois Villon Clan Impersonates Ravnos while this card is in play, >> he is automatically a Camarilla Ravnos (as you said). If Arika Banishes >> the Ravnos Villon, who is then moved back into the controlled region, >> will he be able to choose his sect as he is entering play? The card >> says "may choose to be Camarilla", hinting at that he or she may also >> choose "not to be" Camarilla. Can he? > > See above quote for answer. > > The Ravnos Villon can choose to be Camarilla or can take his default of > Camarilla. I see. Thanks! -- Bye, Daneel

Ec...@mail.ru (Ector) wrote in message news:<d6c82c73.04113...@posting.google.com>... > I'm pretty sure that Shadow Step will be widely available soon for an > average price, like the all good rares from starter decks. And this > card isn't as crucial as Disarm or Tier of Souls. Expect it to be sold > between $3 and $5, so you'll be able to get your 10 Shadow Steps :) > hmmm, interesting point of view... Well, then i am lucky that i have 9 Disarm and just 2 Shadow step. Considering that you claim that Shadow Step is less crucial than Disarm, how about giving you some of my Disarms for some of the Shadow Steps you are going to acquire from each set1 you asre going to buy ? I am sure that you are going to decline (though i would welcome your "yes") so what i am trying to say, is that in theory you claim that Disarm is more crucial than Shadow Step, but do you have the guts to trade your Steps for my Disarms ? This is a nice practical question that demands an answer... George

"David Zopf" <david...@snet.net> wrote in message news:<4X0rd.34904$Qv5....@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com>... >> > > Yeah. And then there'd be people on Usenet whining about how they're > "fleecing the customer" by diluting the wanted reprints across the two sets, > 'forcing' the customer into buying both, and landing them with an excess of > 'useless' extra cards. The logical conclusion? Some people whine, > regardless of what you do as a company. > yeah, i agree. But this kind of people luckily is not the majority. > As for reprintability, these two sets seem logically reprintable as > seperate items, what with each having 100 cards (the exact size of a VTES > uncut sheet, IIRC). WW should be able to adjust inventories on a later > reprint, if they choose to do so. > > I think someone at WW _did_ think about it (Fred), and deliberately made > access to the most wanted reprints (as characterized by obscene Ebay costs) > cheaper by putting most of them into one set. As a fixed set release, if > they can get one reprintable unit to sell vastly more than another, then it > actually helps WW from a standpoint of sales margin. A higher volume > reprint of a single sheet is _much_ less expensive than reprinting two > different sheets (with two different setups of the press). Press setup for > a printing run is a pretty high portion of total print cost (Anam! Where > are you when I need you?). Once the press is going, the more you can print, > the lower the per-sheet print cost, as the setup cost is 'amortized' across > more product. > Then my congrats on Fred. Yeah, i can understand what you are saying, i agree that if WW reprints set1, then putting the most wanted cards in set1 will be proven the correct option. As, many buyers would think "WW is forcing me to buy each set multiple times just to acquire some few cards i miss", if WW put equaly wanted cards in the sets. But now, people are likely to think "i'll buy set2 1 or 2 times for the vamps and set1 multiple times up to 7-8 times to get the cards i want, so by buying a total 8-10 sets i have all the cards i want, otherwise to acquire a lot of Shadow Steps, SoD, Nephandus i would have to buy a total of 14-16 sets". If this is the case, then congrats to Fred BUT: then WW should have put ALL the wanted cards in set1. So Jimmy Dunn + some more should have been in set1 and thus, each devoted player would surely buy a lot of set1 and only a couple of set2. Thus an average ratio of 3-4 set1 to 1 set2 should have been the case when printing of the sets was performed and thus more happiness for people and more money and respect for WW. Of course this is just my opinion... Finaly, note that a store in France from which i regularly buy singles, is selling SET1+SET2 as a whole and NOT seperately... I am sure more will follow this practice or maybe give different prices to the sets, as another guy previously predicted... I agree with him and believe that he is prediction is realistic and will become the case. until then... George

mrsa...@hotmail.com (SABR2TH) wrote in message news:<4112c5a.04113...@posting.google.com>... > Well, I guess my Cam Vitae Slaves just went up in value [shrug] > > I was under the impression these would be reprinted. Guess not. care to richly trade them with me or even sell them ? George

geo...@for.auth.gr (Jyhad_addict) wrote in message news:<c6a50f81.04120...@posting.google.com>... [ quoted text not captured ] No problem, George. I'll send you an e-mail when I get home from work :) Scott

Jyhad_addict wrote: > Your comments are not far from reality, but do not describe exactly > what is going to happen. imo, a frenzy for set1 will occur... Yeah, see, I don't think that is necessarily true. I suspect that for every one person who is willing to buy multiples (lets say 3+) of Set 1, there are probably 100 people who are just going to buy one or two of each. I mean, yeah, ok, I'm totally pulling numbers out of my ass, but that seems like a reasonable estmate. Of my extended playgroup of, what, ~16 players over two cities, it seems likely that about half of them will buy no sets at all, half of them will likely buy one of each, and none of them will likely buy more than one of any given set. I accept that there are certainly some folks who will buy multiple sets, but I suspect that that is a pretty small percentage of the overall market (about 1% by my initial estimate...) > Think this... i have managed to obtain 2 Shadow Steps, by bying > them from ebay: $25 for the 1st and $16 for the 2nd. > > What do you think will keep me from buying 6 set1 boxes, only the > lack of money maybe... i'll surely buy a total of 5x set1 + 1x set2, > maybe more if i manage to obtain more spare money to buy cards... Which, ya know, for my money, is total madness, but that is me. I've played this game forever, and play it all the time. But I've never in my life spent more than, like, 5 bucks for a single card, and would never dream of spending $16.00 on a single card, let alone $25.00. But that is me, and I realize that other people aren't like that. But from my experience overall, these people are pretty few and far between. > Tomorrow i am going to place an order for 2 CE boxes that are going > to cost me $151, an order for singles that is going to cost me $70 and > a pre-order for set1&set2 that is going to cost me $48 (buying from > Europe with s&h fees included). Yeah, see, again, some people do that. I don't think most people do that. I have, like, a mortgage to pay and student loans to pay back for another 6 years. So yeah, some people have tons of money to sink into cards. Most people probably don't. I'm guessing, yeah, ok, some people will buy multiples of the sets (or set). But probably not most people. > If you only think that i only need a few cards multiple times from > set1 and thus i am forced to buy 5x set1 just to get these cards, you > may reach the conclusion that it is not beneficial to do such a thing. I don't think it is a benficial thing to spend that much money on cards. But, again, that is me. > I am not the only one who thinks this way, i am sure. I don't think you are either. But I suspect you are in a pretty small minority. [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <d6c82c73.04120...@posting.google.com>, Ector <Ec...@mail.ru> writes in response to me: >In general, cards that ONLY set combat range aren't going to be >especially popular in combat decks. Depends. Maneuver away defence is quite common in some groups. Watch your metagame, see what's popular. Deer Rifle is sometimes deployed, for instance, not for the damage it does but for two permanent maneuvers. (I once borrowed a deck from Matt Green which was doing this for some of its defence, and when I go for concealed/disguised combat options, Deer Rifle is always high on my list of considerables.) >Flash provides both maneuver and >press, However, it's typically rare to see Flash used for the press IME. The cel/pot decks it turns up in have already blurred for 17. (Yes, there are situations it does happen but, as I say, I've always found that it's the maneuver that people really want.) >but it's outclassed by Pursuit that provides additional strike. >Apportation provides maneuver or press to continue. I'm a big fan of Pursuit. (Pursuit's problem is that it's not Blur, and you can only play one source of additional strikes, so... I do like it, though.) Apportation is rather a different kettle of fish, however, with Thaumaturgy being so weird. >Shadow Step is really good in Lasombra IG deck against guns. But >having 10 Shadow Steps in your deck would hurt you against another IG >deck or any close-range deck (Protean, Vicissitude etc.) Well, yes. But, there are lots of cards in lots of decks that will be really crap if you find the wrong thing going down. Those bounce cards will be rubbish if you find yourself with an Anarch Revolt predator using Parity Shift. But bleed is commonly deployed, so bounce cards are often good. Again, typically, finding yourself in a situation of running up against heavy IG combat is rare. So those may well be odds worth taking. Blah blah blah, watch your group/tournament environment, blah. >Nobody wants >to maneuver, and you have useless cards in your hand... A LOT OF THEM! >I guess you can maneuver to long range just to cycle the card :) Well. It can depend on what you're doing anyhow. If you're an IG combat deck going up against another IG combat deck then... explosion. (You may well be better off cutting a deal if you really are going to fight each other to a standstill.) Going to range in order to pass for now, until you can get a better hand to take him out without you dying in the process, might be an option worth considering. (Typically, the Gangrel can annoy the IG folks by being able to fight back and defend, all at once. IG hates that. Poor little IG.) >> There's also the fact that in-clan disciplines in general work well for >> weenie-fying decks. obt/pot weenifies reasonably well - and you get >> some fringe benefits of bounce from dom on your ancillary vampires. >> (The idea of an obt/pot rush deck, along the lines of the age-old >> obf/pot decks from years ago, has appealed for some time on a purely >> "Cool" level.) >I'd prefer cel/pot weenies, if I really wanted weenie Rush deck. Oh, sure. cel/pot is great. But, it lacks defensive options that aren't "Go and beat them before they can bleed you for 17." The fringe benefits of being able to pack a chunk of bleed bounce without going out of clan or into big vampires is highly appealing. Game winning? Who knows. It'd be fun to try, though. >Jimmy >Dunn is a monster, Celerity-based combat cards are much better >(Pursuit, Blur, Sideslip, Psyche!), and Flurry of Action is >invaluable. Unfortunately, the youngest vampire with superior >Obtenebration have capacity of six, thus Shadow Step would serve only >as a maneuver in obt/pot weenie decks. Far from certain. If you go back in time and look at some of the Rush decks that were around when people really, really wanted to go for the smallest crypt average possible (here, obf/pot won, but lacked the additional strikes), throwing around skills cards wasn't unheard of. There's no reason to immediately discount such a tactic now. Thread drift to the Camarilla Vitae Slave thread, and if you can afford the set-up action for it (you could still be waking/bouncing with them, so it's not all bad, even if not so great), you can have the flexibility to do what you need discipline wise. Typically, Taste of Vitae was always the way of recouping such costs. And you can flex it for POT or OBT or DOM or whatever it is you need. >> >I really think that the card is overhyped. Black >> >Metamorphosis is far more powerful, >> >> Oh, I think BM is a great card. It's a zero-stealth action, though, >> which adds more to your problems. Do you want to add stealth >> (Obt/Elysian Fields) to your deck? >> >> I think the two complement each other rather well, myself. Why >> additional strike if you're at long range? And staying at close is a >> pain if you can only do the one strike. > >Surely, I'm going to add some stealth, as I'm not a big fan of >"combat-only" decks. Well, this is why you might be finding that Shadow Step isn't so great. Combat only decks (especially IG decks) really do want to know that the fact that they've played Bum's Rush, Torn Signpost and Fists of Death isn't going to be countered by some arse going to range and hitting Majesty. You *need* to be at the right range, even at the cost of a little hand jam here and there if it works out that way. (Discard, discard, discard.) Diversifying into stealth such that you can get your BM through, and also head away from "combat only", means that your combat is often less critical. Especially when you've got stealth. Bruise and bleed can find itself in situations where it needs to hit people to get through. You keep blocking, I need you to die. Bruise and bleed that's complemented by a little stealth, however, is in a different situation. If they don't die, you cycle your combat freely and throw down the stealth when you need to. You don't actually *need* them to die, it's just helpful. (Flexibility is good, if you can play it right.) >And if I want to bleed, I need stealth anyway. >Shadow Play and Blanket of Night are quite good. Elysian Fields MUST >be in every Lasombra deck, even in the mentioned weenie-rush. Do you >want opponent's vampires to block your rushes? :) A combat is still a combat, even if blocked. You don't *need* to get the right vampire. The history of cel/pot's hard-won successes shows that it's not *necessary* to have stealth. >By the way, Bum's Rush will provide the precious maneuver if your prey >fails to block it, so stealth is really essential. Obtenebration stealth costs in a lot of cases. Shadow Play and Tenebrous Form cost blood, as does Blanket of Night, as does Stone Travel (burn a blood, anyway - not even reduceable by Path of Night! Damn those Kiasyd). Smoke and Mirrors requires an Anarch, and isn't real stealth. This leaves you with Shroud of Night (a pain at inferior, since you do want to bleed as well sometimes, to stop them keeping the edge if nothing else). Shroud of Absence might be a good possibility, though. However, the maneuver from Shadow Step is free. Two cards, you're in *a* combat and you've got a maneuver, vs two cards and a blood. The questions is, how much do you value being in combat with the right vampire? In the sort of deck I'm considering, it's often not too much of a problem. They all have to die anyway, and blood is precious. >Talley and >Ambrosius can even play Nose of the Hound! True, but that's heading significantly away from the sort of deck I was considering. Auspex also gives you obvious targets. Sudden Reversal the Auspex master if played to widen the vampires used (under-rated, in my opinion. As others have expounded, if they need freaky disciplines on a vampire, you want to stop them). Banish that vampire. Not fun. >My point about BM: if you have additional strike, you can use strikes >with inbuilt maneuvers as your first strike. Play Thrown Gate with >maneuver to short range, And... get Majesty-ed against. You can't strike with the Thrown Gate if you play IG, meaning the strike is wasted if you do. If one maneuver is enough Torn Signpost, Black Metamorphosis and Shadow Step get you exactly the same outcome - only you can sensibly play IG now. In general, aside from the "shock" value, Undead Strength is outclassed by Torn Signpost, IMO. (Assuming you play one or the other, not both.) >But I don't think that the difference should really >justify purchasing a tin for $15 or more just to get Shadow Step. >Personally I just plan to pack 3-4 Shadow Steps with 1-2 Ahriman's >Demesnes as "fear cards". Assuming the old vampires are in the new design format, I'd imagine quite a few[0] people buying the tins for them anyway, at which point buying two or three tins for a clutch of vampires you'd use several copies of isn't so far removed from reality anyway, and some Shadow Steps come in as part of the deal. [0] This does not mean all. If you, dear reader, don't care what your cards look like, this explicitly does not mean you. Some people clearly do, others clearly don't. See the rec.*.jyhad archives for more details. [ quoted text not captured ]

[ quoted text not captured ] I'm NOT going to decline your offer, but there are some additional factors that I must consider: 1). I've just ordered two boxes of Sabbat War boosters, and I hope to find some Black Metamorphosis and Disarms there. 2). I'm going to purchase some Brujah starters, since I need Psyche!, Anathema, Taste of Vitae, Disarms and Immortal Grapples. Not more than 2 or 3 starters, though. I determined that I'd like to have 5 Disarms. If I get unlucky enough to open no Disarms in my boxes, I will gladly trade my Shadow Steps for your Disarms. Yours, Ector.

ok, then. that's good. let me know when you make up your mind. George

"(It's helpful to quote what you're following up, so that we know what's being disagreed with.)" This damn google groups beta thing... I'm not so sure how to quote yet... Normally I do (see previous posts) ~SV

On 1 Dec 2004 06:25:30 -0800, geo...@for.auth.gr (Jyhad_addict) scrawled: > Additionaly, don't forget that Kiasyd also have OBT and they also >have access to Darkling Trickery, another nice card (a rare one >though). Yeah, they totally got the rarities arse-backwards on Darkling Trickery and Absorb the Mind. Grrrr..... salem domain:canberra http://www.geocities.com/salem_christ.geo/vtes.htm (replace "hotmail" with "yahoo" to email)

salem <salem_ch...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<fmttq0ped3e03ae96...@4ax.com>... > On 1 Dec 2004 06:25:30 -0800, geo...@for.auth.gr (Jyhad_addict) > scrawled: > > > > Additionaly, don't forget that Kiasyd also have OBT and they also > >have access to Darkling Trickery, another nice card (a rare one > >though). > > Yeah, they totally got the rarities arse-backwards on Darkling > Trickery and Absorb the Mind. > > Grrrr..... > yeah, next thing we'll see will be a rare maneuver for necromancy :P I also remind you of Swoop... :P maneuver to close range and +1 str. not bad, but you can also hit efficiently from long range with the gargoyles by using common cards. So, screw the damn rare maneuver to close range (+1 str). George

"Jyhad_addict" <geo...@for.auth.gr> wrote in message news:c6a50f81.04120...@posting.google.com... > salem <salem_ch...@hotmail.com> wrote in message > news:<fmttq0ped3e03ae96...@4ax.com>... >> Yeah, they totally got the rarities arse-backwards on Darkling >> Trickery and Absorb the Mind. >> >> Grrrr..... >> > > yeah, next thing we'll see will be a rare maneuver for necromancy :P > > I also remind you of Swoop... :P maneuver to close range and +1 > str. not bad, but you can also hit efficiently from long range with > the gargoyles by using common cards. So, screw the damn rare maneuver > to close range (+1 str). Er, Swoop is rare because it's crap. Doesn't explain Darkling Trickery. Fred

> Er, Swoop is rare because it's crap. Doesn't explain Darkling Trickery. How dare you mock the power of Swoop, the Gargoyles manuever trump card! It's so powerful it is going to get mentioned in soon in a <undisclosed clan> newsletter that it is broken and hoses the <undisclosed clan> making that <undiscosed clan's> main strategy worthless. Angry pigeons everywhere agree that Swoop is raw, untamed power. Feathers of Fear! Comments Welcome, Norman S. Brown, Jr XZealot Archon of the Swamp

geo...@for.auth.gr (Jyhad_addict) wrote in message news:<c6a50f81.04120...@posting.google.com>... [ quoted text not captured ] E-mail sent. Let me know your offer via reply of said e-mail ;)

salem <salem_ch...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<fmttq0ped3e03ae96...@4ax.com>... > Yeah, they totally got the rarities arse-backwards on Darkling > Trickery and Absorb the Mind. And for Hag's Wrinkles and Infection or Putrification. Rarities have been better since Bloodlines, though.

> > Yeah, they totally got the rarities arse-backwards on Darkling > > Trickery and Absorb the Mind. > > And for Hag's Wrinkles and Infection or Putrification. Rarities have > been better since Bloodlines, though. > Except for The Diamond Thunderbolt.

[ quoted text not captured ] This is the second reference I've seen to Thunderbolt. What's the deal? Morgan Vening